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	<title>The Gomez Blog &#187; Theology</title>
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		<title>Sermon, Song, and Book of the Week</title>
		<link>http://markandchas.com/blog/archives/570</link>
		<comments>http://markandchas.com/blog/archives/570#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jan 2010 04:04:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Books]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Music]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Theology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Book of the Week]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Sermon of the Week]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Song of the Week]]></category>

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		<description><![CDATA[This morning we had a great time of studying the Word and spending time together as believers.  Bobby Endyk walked us through Philippians 1:12-18, with great discussion along the way.  The pumpkin roll and banana bread were amazing as well.
Sermon of the Week
The sermon of the week is actually a series on election by Pastor [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class="drop">T</span>his morning we had a great time of studying the Word and spending time together as believers.  Bobby Endyk walked us through Philippians 1:12-18, with great discussion along the way.  The pumpkin roll and banana bread were amazing as well.</p>
<h1>Sermon of the Week</h1>
<p>The sermon of the week is actually a series on election by Pastor Mike Abendroth.  Pastor Abendroth is a friend of mine from Massachusetts where he is an elder at <a title="Bethlehem Bible Church" href="http://bbcchurch.org" target="_blank">Bethlehem Bible Church</a>.  This sermon series was very helpful to me as I was starting to come to an understanding of what the Bible meant by election.  The series is formatted as answers to &#8220;frequently asked questions&#8221; about election.  He was kind enough to give me permission to post them here for you to listen to.</p>
<p>Ministry&#8217;s Only Hope: Election Part 1</p>
<p><a title="Ministry's Only Hope: Election" href="http://www.bbcchurch.org/bbcpodcast/BBC20070121A.mp3"></a><a href="http://www.bbcchurch.org/bbcpodcast/BBC20070121A.mp3">Ministry\&#8217;s Only Hope:  Election Part 1</a></p>
<p>Ministry&#8217;s Only Hope: Election Part 2</p>
<p><a href="http://www.bbcchurch.org/bbcpodcast/BBC20070128A.mp3">Ministry\&#8217;s Only Hope: Election Part 2</a></p>
<p>Ministry&#8217;s Only Hope: Election Part 3</p>
<p><a href="http://www.bbcchurch.org/bbcpodcast/BBC20070204A.mp3">Election Part 3</a></p>
<p>Ministry&#8217;s Only Hope: Election Part 4</p>
<p><a href="http://www.bbcchurch.org/bbcpodcast/BBC20070211A.mp3">Election Part 4</a></p>
<p>Ministry&#8217;s Only Hope: Election Part 5</p>
<p><a href="http://www.bbcchurch.org/bbcpodcast/BBC20070218A.mp3">Election Part 5</a></p>
<p>Ministry&#8217;s Only Hope: Election Part 6</p>
<p><a href="http://www.bbcchurch.org/bbcpodcast/BBC20070225A.mp3">Election Part 6</a></p>
<p>Ministry&#8217;s Only Hope: Election Part 7</p>
<p><a href="http://www.bbcchurch.org/bbcpodcast/BBC20070318A.mp3">Election Part 7</a></p>
<p>Ministry&#8217;s Only Hope: Election Part 8</p>
<p><a href="http://www.bbcchurch.org/bbcpodcast/BBC20070325A.mp3">Election Part 8</a></p>
<p>Ministry&#8217;s Only Hope: Election Part 9</p>
<p><a href="http://www.bbcchurch.org/bbcpodcast/BBC20070429A.mp3">Election Part 9</a></p>
<p>Ministry&#8217;s Only Hope: Election Part 10</p>
<p><a href="http://www.bbcchurch.org/bbcpodcast/BBC20070506A.mp3">Election Part 10</a></p>
<h1>Song of the Week</h1>
<p>Marcus sent me this song to use as song of the week this week and its an awesome one to use to draw your attention to God and His glory.  Sing along and enjoy the God you serve.</p>
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<h1>Book of the Week</h1>
<p>The book of the week is <em>The Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God </em>by D.A. Carson.  Here are some quotes from the first chapter to whet your interest:</p>
<blockquote><p>To put this another way, we live in a culture in which<br />many other and complementary truths about God are widely<br />disbelieved. I do not think that what the Bible says about the love<br />of God can long survive at the forefront of our thinking if it is<br />abstracted from the sovereignty of God, the holiness of God, the<br />wrath of God, the providence of God, or the personhood of<br />God—to mention only a few nonnegotiable elements of basic<br />Christianity.<br />The result, of course, is that the love of God in our culture has<br />been purged of anything the culture finds uncomfortable. The<br />love of God has been sanitized, democratized, and above all sentimentalized.<br />This process has been going on for some time. My<br />generation was taught to sing, “What the world needs now is<br />love, sweet love,” in which we robustly instruct the Almighty<br />that we do not need another mountain (we have enough of them),<br />but we could do with some more love. The hubris is staggering.</p>
<p>Precisely how does one integrate what the Bible says about the<br />love of God with what the Bible says about God’s sovereignty,<br />extending as it does even over the domain of evil? What does<br />love mean in a Being whom at least some texts treat as impassible?<br />How is God’s love tied to God’s justice?</p>
</blockquote>
<p><a title="Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God" href="http://go2.wordpress.com/?id=725X1342&amp;site=oldbutweary.wordpress.com&amp;url=http%3A%2F%2Fs3.amazonaws.com%2Ftgc-documents%2Fcarson%2F2000_difficult_doctrine_of_the_love_of_God.pdf" target="_blank">Download it here</a>.  Or order <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Difficult-Doctrine-Love-God/dp/1581341261/ref=tmm_pap_title_0" target="_blank">your own copy here</a>.</p>
<p>Hope you enjoy some of these materials.  Take a look and bring your questions to our next meeting on February 13.</p>
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		<title>Sermon, Song, and Book of the Week</title>
		<link>http://markandchas.com/blog/archives/566</link>
		<comments>http://markandchas.com/blog/archives/566#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jan 2010 03:27:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Theology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Book of the Week]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Sermon of the Week]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Song of the Week]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://markandchas.com/blog/?p=566</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sorry this took a while to post.  I really enjoyed our time of community and Bible study last Saturday and am looking forward to doing it again in a week.  Here&#8217;s some of what we covered.
Book of the Week &#8211; Suffering and the Sovereignty of God edited by John Piper and Justin Taylor.  It seemed [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class="drop">S</span>orry this took a while to post.  I really enjoyed our time of community and Bible study last Saturday and am looking forward to doing it again in a week.  Here&#8217;s some of what we covered.</p>
<p>Book of the Week &#8211; Suffering and the Sovereignty of God edited by John Piper and Justin Taylor.  It seemed like we were privy to a lot of suffering recently, both globally (earthquake in Haiti) and personally (close friends facing life and death situations).  It seemed like a good time to reflect on the theology of suffering.  This book takes essays from different authors and theologians and compiles them together to develop a Biblical basis for trusting in the sovereignty of God in light of suffering.  Read it online here: <a href="http://bit.ly/1an00j" target="_blank">http://bit.ly/1an00j</a></p>
<p>Sermon of the Week &#8211; Repentance for the Righteous by Matt Chandler.  Matt Chandler is one of our favorite speakers because of his expository style and honest approach.  I always walk away feeling convicted and in need of repentance.  This sermon is no exception.  He deals with the fact that we all need repentance, and not just for the things we label as terrible sins.  The good, law-abiding, Sunday School-teaching person who thinks his works impress God needs repentance as much as the drunken, rebellious criminal.  Listen here:  <a href="http://bit.ly/6CmvBu" target="_blank">http://bit.ly/6CmvBu</a>.</p>
<p>Song of the Week &#8211; God has really impressed on me the importance of prayer in the past few weeks, so it was a delight to listen to the song Marcus picked for this week which deals with waiting for God in prayer.  Listen to it here:</p>
<p> </p>
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		<slash:comments>2</slash:comments>
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		<title>Song, Sermon, and Book of the Week</title>
		<link>http://markandchas.com/blog/archives/564</link>
		<comments>http://markandchas.com/blog/archives/564#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Jan 2010 19:28:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Books]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Music]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Theology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bible Study]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Book of the Week]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Sermon of the Week]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Song of the Week]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://markandchas.com/blog/?p=564</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[We had our regular Bible study this morning and enjoyed some time looking at Philippians 1, celebrating the diversity of Grace that God has given, and the reality of peace that we experience because of that grace.  We had interesting discussions on the ramifications of the atonement and who God actually brought peace to through [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class="drop">W</span>e had our regular Bible study this morning and enjoyed some time looking at Philippians 1, celebrating the diversity of Grace that God has given, and the reality of peace that we experience because of that grace.  We had interesting discussions on the ramifications of the atonement and who God actually brought peace to through the blood of Christ.</p>
<p>Our song of the week is &#8220;<a href="http://www.sovereigngracestore.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=M4205-09-51" target="_blank">All I Really Need</a>&#8221; (click for a free download) by Mark and Stephen Altrogge.  The song is part of the <a href="http://www.sovereigngracemusic.org/albums/category/sovereign_grace_music/in_a_little_while" target="_blank"><em>In A Little While</em></a> album put out by Sovereign Grace Music.  The focus of the song is that our real need is peace with God through Christ and He has provided that for us.  We pondered a quote by K. Scott Oliphint and Rod Mays in the book <em>Things that Cannot Be Shaken</em>:</p>
<blockquote><p>Our true need is not physical water or husbands or pleasure, or. . . .  Our true need is for a permanent solution, one that does not ebb or flow with the times, one not subject to the whims and wishes of our fickle hearts.  We need living water.  We need permanent change.  We need the Holy Spirit to unite us to Christ.  In Him we have the True Bread and Living Water, so that we will never be hungry or thirsty again.  All of our needs are met in Him, because in the end, our only real need is to be united to Christ by the Spirit.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Our sermon of the week is &#8220;<a href="http://www.grantedministries.org/audio/p_washer_holiness_of_god_hc2005_pt1.mp3" target="_blank">The Holiness of God</a>&#8221; by Paul Washer.  Washer discusses what it means for God to be holy and it establishes a high view of God that is foundational for us to understand some of the truths, and some of the hard truths, of the Gospel.</p>
<p>Our book of the week is <a href="http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/OnlineBooks/ByTitle/2008_God_Is_the_Gospel/" target="_blank"><em>God is the Gospel</em></a> by John Piper, which can be downloaded for free from Desiring God ministries.  In God is the Gospel, Piper grounds the magnificence of the Gospel in the fact that we get God.  That God is the primary object of the Gospel.  And that God is the one who initiates and accomplishes the Gospel power in our lives.</p>
<p>Our next meeting will be Saturday, January 16 at 10:00am.  Feel free to join us for some breakfast foods and Bible study.</p>
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		<title>Sermon of the Week</title>
		<link>http://markandchas.com/blog/archives/458</link>
		<comments>http://markandchas.com/blog/archives/458#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2009 16:43:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Theology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Matt Chandler]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Prayer]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Sermon of the Week]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://markandchas.com/blog/?p=458</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sorry this took me a little while to get posted.  The sermon of the week is &#8220;The Art of Prayer&#8221; by Matt Chandler.  I think its important as we begin our group study to understand what our prayer time is about and what it should look like.  Enjoy.
The Art of Prayer
Listen to more sermons from [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class="drop">S</span>orry this took me a little while to get posted.  The sermon of the week is &#8220;The Art of Prayer&#8221; by Matt Chandler.  I think its important as we begin our group study to understand what our prayer time is about and what it should look like.  Enjoy.</p>
<p><a href="http://hv.thevillagechurch.net/resource_files/audio/200910030900HWC21ASAAA_MattChandler_ThePathPt04-TheArtOfPrayer.mp3">The Art of Prayer</a></p>
<p>Listen to <a href="http://hv.thevillagechurch.net/sermons" target="_blank">more sermons from The Village Church here</a>.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>Substitutionary Atonement</title>
		<link>http://markandchas.com/blog/archives/427</link>
		<comments>http://markandchas.com/blog/archives/427#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 02:23:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Theology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Atonement]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Greg Boyd]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Penal Substitution]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://markandchas.com/blog/?p=427</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[We had an excellent sermon this morning from one of our elders over 1 Corinthians 1:17-25.  Its a packed passage that has been on my mind lately.  As he discussed the foolishness and power of the cross, it reminded me of some material we went over a long time ago when I was teaching a [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><img class="alignleft" style="margin: 4px;" title="Cross" src="http://markgomezdesign.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/crossandcrown.jpg" alt="" width="340" height="226" /><span class="drop">W</span>e had an excellent sermon this morning from one of our elders over 1 Corinthians 1:17-25.  Its a packed passage that has been on my mind lately.  As he discussed the foolishness and power of the cross, it reminded me of some material we went over a long time ago when I was teaching a Bible study class.  The sermon this morning briefly discussed some views on the atonement that have been in vogue lately.  Some scholars have tried to remove some of the offense of the cross by rejecting the substitutionary aspect of the atonement.  One of the scholars at the forefront of the movement is Greg Boyd.</p>
<p>Greg Boyd advocates for what he calls the Christus Victor theory of the atonement.  He rejects the fact that Christ suffered the wrath of God on our behalf and instead says that the cross is really a picture of love overcoming evil through self-sacrifice, if I understand the theory correctly.  On his website he has a series of questions about penal substitution that are meant to cause us to question (and eventually reject) our view.  I went through them in Sunday School and thought I&#8217;d post some answers here.  You can see <a href="http://www.gregboyd.org/qa/jesus/what-do-you-think-of-the-%e2%80%9cpenal-substitutionary%e2%80%9d-view-of-the-atonement/" target="_blank">Greg Boyd&#8217;s questions about substitutionary atonement here</a>.  I&#8217;ll repost the questions in quotes, then answer them.</p>
<blockquote><p>Does God really need to appease his wrath with a blood sacrifice in order to forgive us? If so, does this mean that the law of “an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth” is the ultimate description of God’s character? And if this is true, what are we to make of Jesus’ teaching that this law is surpassed by the law of love? Not only this, but what are we to make of all the instances in the Bible where God forgives people without demanding a sacrifice (e.g. the prodigal son)?</p></blockquote>
<p>First of all, why does a Penal Substitution view make the law of &#8220;an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. . . the ultimate description of God&#8217;s character&#8221;?  This is just unnecessary hyperbole.  It is part of God&#8217;s character that He judges sin.  Does Boyd deny that God judges and punishes sin?  Does He really believe that it would be consistent with God&#8217;s character to let sin, rebellion against God, go completely unpunished?  And if so, then why will so many people be punished eternally for their sins?  If it is against God&#8217;s character to require a penalty for sin, then how do you explain all the passages in the Bible that deal with a penalty for sin?</p>
<p>Secondly, he asks, &#8220;What are we to make of Jesus&#8217; teaching that this law is surpassed by the law of love?&#8221;  By providing a penal substitution, He demonstrated His love for us.  He sacrificed Himself so that we could avoid the punishment for sin.  In other words, Christ&#8217;s substitutionary sacrifice is the basis of the fulfillment of the law and the law of love and grace exists <strong>because of </strong>the cross.</p>
<p>Finally, he asks, &#8220;What are we to make of all the instances in the Bible where God forgives people without demanding a sacrifice (e.g. the prodigal son)?&#8221;  The truth is that God <strong>does not</strong> forgive without demanding a sacrifice.  He <strong>provided</strong> the sacrifice.  He is able to forgive because the sacrifice was paid once for all by Christ.</p>
<blockquote><p>If God’s holiness requires that a sacrifice be made before he can fellowship with sinners, how did Jesus manage to hang out with sinners without a sacrifice, since he is as fully divine and as holy as God the Father?</p></blockquote>
<p>First, while Christ is God, His full glory was veiled when He took on flesh.  I don&#8217;t fully understand the &#8220;kenosis&#8221;, but I believe that while Christ was fully God and fully man, His full glory was veiled so He was approachable.  Moses&#8217; time in the presence of God&#8217;s glory left him with a glowing complexion.  We don&#8217;t see the same thing happening to the disciples so we assume that His full glory is veiled.</p>
<p>Second, Boyd is begging the question again by assuming there was no sacrifice.  There was a sacrifice.  Christ&#8217;s sacrifice which was timeless in eternity and is the basis for anyone at any time being able to approach God.  The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the earth.</p>
<blockquote><p><strong></strong>If Jesus’ death allows God the Father to accept us, wouldn’t it be more accurate to say that Jesus reconciles <em>God to us</em> than it is to say Jesus reconciles <em>us to God</em>? Yet the New Testament claims the latter and never the former (e.g. 2 Cor. 5:18-20). ). In fact, if God loves sinners and yet can’t accept sinners without a sacrifice, wouldn’t it be even more accurate to say that God reconciles God <em>to himself</em> than to say he reconciles us to God?  But this is clearly an odd and unbiblical way of speaking.</p></blockquote>
<p>I think this one has less to do with atonement and more to do with depravity and regeneration.  Its as if Boyd pictures us as wanting to come to God, but God can&#8217;t accept us unless He gruesomely murders His Son.  But that is not the picture the Bible paints.  In fact, it is the other way around.  We are dead in our sins and can not exercise ourselves toward God.  We are rebels at war with God.  God desires to reconcile us to Him, so He provides a sacrifice to take our place, and on the basis of the sacrifice of Christ for our sins, He is able to draw us, call us, woo us, and forgive us.  It wasn&#8217;t us who were beating on Heaven&#8217;s door desiring entrance while God sat and thought, &#8220;I&#8217;d love to take you in, but I just can&#8217;t without killing someone.&#8221;  It&#8217;s us running from Him as fast and as far as we can and Him saying, &#8220;Rather than place the burden and penalty of your sins on you, I will place them on My Son, and on that basis I will bring you back to Me.&#8221;</p>
<blockquote><p>How are we to understand one member of the Trinity (the Father) being wrathful towards another member (the Son) of the Trinity, when they are, along with the Holy Spirit, one and the same God? Can God be truly angry with God? Can God actually punish God?</p></blockquote>
<p>Just because we don&#8217;t understand something does not make it untrue.  I don&#8217;t understand the concept of the Trinity itself.  This is a non-argument.  I don&#8217;t need Boyd to be able to wrap his head around something in order for me to believe it.</p>
<blockquote><p><strong></strong>If God the father needs someone to “pay the price” for sin, does the Father ever really <em>forgive</em> anyone? Think about it. If you owe me a hundred dollars and I hold you to it unless someone pays me the owed sum, did I really forgive your debt? It seems not, especially since the very concept of forgiveness is about releasing a debt — not collecting it from someone else.</p></blockquote>
<p>The very concept of forgiveness is about releasing a debt, but more importantly, it is about taking the debt oneself.  In other words, if you wreck my car and it costs $1000 to fix it, if I forgive you that doesn&#8217;t mean the debt goes unpaid.  It means I paid it myself.  God provided the sacrifice Himself.  He paid the debt we could never pay.  That is the basis of God&#8217;s forgiveness.</p>
<blockquote><p>Are sin and guilt the sorts of things that can be literally transferred from one party to another? Related to this, how are we to conceive of the Father being angry towards Jesus and justly punishing him when he of course knew Jesus never did anything wrong?</p></blockquote>
<p>This brings up the side topic of imputation.  Romans 5 is fairly clear on this topic:  &#8220;Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness<span> </span>leads to justification and life for all men.&#8221;  Adam&#8217;s sin left all in Adam guilty, while Christ&#8217;s act of righteousness makes all in Christ righteous.  My sin was placed on Christ, and Christ&#8217;s righteousness was placed on me.  How else would I ever be worthy of entering Heaven?  Surely not on my own merit.  Rather, Christ&#8217;s righteousness was imputed to me, making me worthy of the glories of Heaven.</p>
<blockquote><p><strong></strong>If the just punishment for sin is eternal hell (as most Christians have traditionally believed), how does Jesus’ several hours of suffering and his short time in the grave pay for it?</p></blockquote>
<p>A sinner is punished forever because he can never satisfactorily pay the penalty for sin, so he pays it continuously.  Because Christ was God Incarnate, His sacrifice was sufficient to pay the penalty for sin, and only needed to be offered once.</p>
<blockquote><p><strong></strong>If the main thing Jesus came to do was to appease the Father’s wrath by being slain by him for our sin, couldn’t this have been accomplished just as easily when (say) Jesus was a one-year-old boy as when he was a thirty-three year old man? Were Jesus’ life, teachings, healing and deliverance ministry merely a prelude to the one really important thing he did – namely, die? It doesn’t seem to me that the Gospels divide up and prioritize the various aspects of Jesus’ life in this way. (I maintain that everything Jesus did was about one thing – overcoming evil with love. Hence, every aspect of Jesus was centered on atonement — that is, reconciling us to God and freeing us from the devil’s oppression.)</p></blockquote>
<p>In the book of John, Christ repeatedly speaks about how His hour is not yet come as if His ministry was leading up to a certain point when His hour would in fact come or His ministry would reach its climax.  At the time of His passion, He declares that His hour is come, so it would seem that, yes, His ministry was leading up to one thing, namely His death and resurrection.  In fact, the whole Bible leads up to this pictorially and prophetically, through the sacrifices in Genesis, Abraham and Isaac, the Passover, the sacrificial system in the Mosaic law, etc., etc., etc.  All of it points to the sacrifice on the cross.  Paul, looking back, declares the good news of the gospel to be that &#8220;He died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again according to the Scriptures.&#8221;  Christ did overcome evil with love, but He did it by &#8220;bearing my sins in His own body, on the tree.&#8221;</p>
<blockquote><p>Not to be offensive, but if it’s true that God’s wrath must be appeased by sacrificing his own Son – or, if not that, sacrificing all other humans in eternal hell – then don’t we have to conclude that those pagans who have throughout history sacrificed their children to appease the gods’ wrath had the right intuition, even if they expressed it in the wrong way?</p></blockquote>
<p>Well, that is a bit offensive, but its not even close.  If they had the right intuition, they would be looking to their gods to come down into their midst and, of their own grace, provide a sacrifice that would remove the necessity of sacrifices.  The intuition that they had something worthwhile to offer to a god is as far from Scripture as you can possibly get.</p>
<blockquote><p>What is the intrinsic connection between what Jesus did on the cross and how we actually live? The Penal Substitution view makes it seem like the real issue in need of resolution is a legal matter in the heavenly realms between God’s holy wrath and our sin. Christ’s death changes how God sees us, but this theory says nothing about how Christ’s death<em> changes us</em>. This is particularly concerning to me because every study done on the subject has demonstrated that for the majority of Americans who believe in Jesus, their belief makes little or no impact on their life. I wonder if the dominance of this legal-transaction view of the atonement might be partly responsible for this tragic state of affairs.</p></blockquote>
<p>First of all, one issue in need of resolution <strong>was</strong> a legal matter in the heavenly realms between God&#8217;s holy wrath and sin.  Christ&#8217;s death did change how God sees us.  That&#8217;s the point of the discussion in Romans 3, where Paul declares God to be just and the justifier on the basis of the &#8220;propitiation by His blood&#8221;.  But this is only part of the picture.  The wider picture has our sins imputed to Christ, and Christ&#8217;s righteousness imputed to us.  We are baptized into His death and our sin nature has been put to death by the cross.  The fact that Christ took my sins and paid for them allows me to live a life of freedom from sin.  A proper understanding of the atonement and imputation should and will motivate us to holiness.  If someone&#8217;s belief makes little or no impact on their life, as Greg Boyd observes in the majority of Americans, then James and 1 John tell us that they never really believed in the first place.  How can the actions of unbelievers be an indictment on a Christian belief?</p>
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		<title>Christianity, Culture, and Hip Hop</title>
		<link>http://markandchas.com/blog/archives/421</link>
		<comments>http://markandchas.com/blog/archives/421#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 17:06:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Music]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Theology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[culture]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[hip hop]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Shai Linne]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://markandchas.com/blog/?p=421</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A while back I listened to an interview between Bob LaPine and a Christian rapper, Shai Linne.  I always had an aversion to rap music, partly due to my upbringing and partly due to the fact that the rap being put out by Christian artists was lyrically and doctrinally weak.  Then I was exposed to [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><img class="alignright" title="Shai Linne" src="http://vox2.cdn.amiestreet.com/band-picture/Shai-Linne_Q8M5eVx0AHQx_full.jpg" alt="" width="350" height="227" /><span class="drop">A</span> while back I listened to an <a href="http://familylife.edgeboss.net/download/familylife/earreverent/ear-0018.mp3" target="_blank">interview between Bob LaPine and a Christian rapper, Shai Linne</a>.  I always had an aversion to rap music, partly due to my upbringing and partly due to the fact that the rap being put out by Christian artists was lyrically and doctrinally weak.  Then I was exposed to a new set of rappers, including LeCrae and Shai Linne.  I was stunned by the doctrinal content of their lyrics.  A lot of conservatives rail against the shallowness of contemporary Christian songs.  These songs break that mold and devastate that argument.  See some samples at the end.</p>
<p>But the question that tends to come up is whether or not the medium of hip hop in general (and rap in particular) is an appropriate medium for conveying Biblical truth.  Shai Linne tackles some of those ideas head on and discusses his journey as a Christian and as an artist.  He is intelligent and well-spoken.  He is obviously educated in the reformed tradition (his song, Mission Accomplished, is an excellent defense of Limited Atonement).  I offer up a few quotes from that interview for your contemplation.</p>
<blockquote><p>I didn&#8217;t have to leave my culture in order to become a Christian, but rather allow Christ to inform my expression of my culture.</p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>We&#8217;re trying to capitalize on the power of the medium of hip-hop.  One of the benefits that it has is that you&#8217;re able to pack a lot of information into a small amount of musical space and that really just lends itself to exposition and some of the deeper things of the Word.</p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>I would never try to force anyone to like hip-hop.  My main thing is, can we unify around the centrality of Jesus Christ and Him crucified.  You don&#8217;t have to become a rapper or even enjoy rap, but my hope is that you would appreciate the truth that is being communicated.  That&#8217;s the same with any genre. I wouldn&#8217;t want to blindly accept anything because it came in a certain package, but I want to Biblically attempt to listen and discern, What&#8217;s the content? What is the message that&#8217;s being communicated?</p></blockquote>
<p>So, if you&#8217;re a traditionalist, what&#8217;s your argument against an artist like Shai Linne.  The shallowness argument is gone.  He traces the roots of hip hop to a positive origin.  And what of his statement about Christ informing the expression of his culture?  Does sanctification require a cultural transformation?  Some interesting thoughts here.</p>
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		<slash:comments>8</slash:comments>
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		<title>Every Spiritual Blessing</title>
		<link>http://markandchas.com/blog/archives/379</link>
		<comments>http://markandchas.com/blog/archives/379#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 20:13:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Theology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[blessings]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Christ]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[preaching]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Third Day]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://markandchas.com/blog/?p=379</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Try to follow my line of thinking here, because I think we&#8217;re going to take a lot of twists and turns.  I&#8217;ve been spending some time (really, too much time) lately arguing for a Biblical view of giving.  One of the things that always comes up is the difference between spiritual and material blessings.  Or, [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class="drop">T</span>ry to follow my line of thinking here, because I think we&#8217;re going to take a lot of twists and turns.  I&#8217;ve been spending some time (really, too much time) lately arguing for a Biblical view of giving.  One of the things that always comes up is the difference between spiritual and material blessings.  Or, better put, the priority of spiritual blessings over material blessings.  Or even, to try one more time to get it right, how material blessings are really spiritual blessings.</p>
<p>As I had this on my mind I stopped by one of my favorite blogs, Pyromaniacs, and found <a href="http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2009/07/interlude-y-o-u.html" target="_blank">a great post by Frank Turk</a> about the priority of preaching Christ.  His argument is that Jesus Christ and the gospel are the solution to culture.  That Jesus Christ is the solution to our problems.  Marital difficulties?  Christ is the answer.  Money problems?  Christ is the answer.  Spoiled kids?  Christ is the answer.  Not self-help guides.  Not 5-step processes to be a better person.  Not man&#8217;s wisdom.  Christ and Him crucified.</p>
<p>That may sound a bit oversimplified and you also may be wondering what in the world that has anything to do with material vs. spiritual blessings.  Here&#8217;s where they start to come together.  Since we are in Christ, we have been blessed with every spiritual blessing in the Heavenly places.  I think a lot of our problems stem from a misunderstanding of this important gospel truth.</p>
<p>See, we&#8217;re looking to God to supply more, special blessings, like our visiting tithe proponent talked about in his posts on tithing.  We expect God to operate simply on the physical plane.  When God promises healing, we expect it to be physical healing.  When God promises blessings, we expect material blessings.  We expect a back-scratching type of relationship with God.  I scratch God&#8217;s back with my tithe, and He&#8217;ll scratch my back with &#8220;special, material blessings&#8221;.</p>
<p>Let me illustrate this.  As I was reading <a href="http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2009/07/interlude-y-o-u.html" target="_blank">Frank Turk&#8217;s post</a> about Christ being the answer, my mind, of course, ran to Third Day&#8217;s excellent song, <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOb8ihacSM4" target="_blank">Cry to Jesus</a> (please follow the link to listen to it;  they&#8217;ve disabled embedding, so I can&#8217;t place it here directly, but it is well worth listening to).  I looked up the video on YouTube and enjoyed a few moments of focusing on Christ as the answer to my problems.  Then I scrolled down to the comment area.  Wow.  Let&#8217;s be honest.  Anyone who&#8217;s ever been on YouTube knows that the comments section is not the place for enlightened, honest, intellectual discussion.  And this was no exception.  But what several people said was very enlightening.</p>
<p>Mac Powell sings this as the chorus,</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;There is hope for the helpless<br />
Rest for the weary<br />
Love for the broken heart<br />
There is grace and forgiveness<br />
Mercy and healing<br />
He&#8217;ll meet you wherever you are<br />
Cry out to Jesus, Cry out to Jesus&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>And the problem people run into is that when he says &#8220;hope for the helpless&#8221; they assume he means physical hope.  When he says &#8220;mercy and healing&#8221; they assume he means physical healing.  And so when they cry out to Jesus, they are assuming physical categories.  They cry out to Jesus for their mom to be healed of cancer and if she&#8217;s not, then they assume the whole things was false.  They cry out to Jesus because of their poverty and expect God to provide a new job, or higher salary.</p>
<p>But that ignores the fact that God has already provided us every spiritual blessing.  We just need to live in the reality of that fact and put our focus in Christ for healing, spiritual healing that is.  Christ is the answer to all our problems.  And He has provided me with every spiritual blessing.  So if I am trying to gain more favor from God by giving my tithe, I&#8217;ve missed out on the point of giving.  And I&#8217;ve missed out on the fact that even if God leaves me in poverty, that is a spiritual blessing in my life.  That if God leaves me in poor health, that is a spiritual blessing.  That everything that happens in my life has been ordained by Him for my good and His glory.  So talking about extra, special, material blessings that you can unlock by giving a tithe is just nonsensical.</p>
<p>But a materialistic view of God is not only poor interpretation of Scripture, that view creates atheists.  They come to God looking for God to solve their material problems and when he doesn&#8217;t do it the way they expect, they assume that the problem is with God.  And when they reject God and still see material wealth or physical health, they think that invalidates God.  Over and over on the YouTube combox.  But the problem is not with God.  The problem is with a faulty view of God.  So focus on Christ when you run into problems and understand that Christ is not necessarily going to fix your problem, rather focusing on Him is the solution to your problem.</p>
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		<title>Pray for me, I got a raise</title>
		<link>http://markandchas.com/blog/archives/363</link>
		<comments>http://markandchas.com/blog/archives/363#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 22:46:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Theology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[blessings]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Money]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[prosperity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Tithing]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://markandchas.com/blog/?p=363</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sounds weird, doesn&#8217;t it?  Seems like that would be an answer to prayer, not a prayer request.  But it is totally serious and here&#8217;s why it sounds weird and why its so important?
As Christians in our culture, we seem to have gotten into the habit of creating a false separation between prayer requests and praises [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class="drop">S</span>ounds weird, doesn&#8217;t it?  Seems like that would be an answer to prayer, not a prayer request.  But it is totally serious and here&#8217;s why it sounds weird and why its so important?</p>
<p>As Christians in our culture, we seem to have gotten into the habit of creating a false separation between prayer requests and praises (I&#8217;m speaking from my own experience here; your experience may be different).  In other words, we open up Sunday School with prayer time and start out with praises.  This is usually our list of things that are going &#8220;right&#8221; in our lives, or the &#8220;good&#8221; things God has given us.  Like a raise, a new house, a new job, better health, etc.  Then after we&#8217;ve finished listing our praises to God for &#8220;good&#8221; things, we start on our prayer requests, which are generally the &#8220;bad&#8221; things that we&#8217;d like God to fix in our lives.  Like unemployment, sickness, money problems, etc.</p>
<p>The problem is that this bifurcation reveals how we view God.  We&#8217;ve missed out on the truth that God is working all thing together for our good and His glory.  So that means that everything in our lives is meant for our good.  Paul says it this way in 2 Corinthians 12:9 (ESV):  &#8220;But he said to me, &#8216;<span>My grace is sufficient for you, for <a href="http://www.esvstudybible.org/search?q=2+Cor+12%3A9%2CIsa+40%3A29-31%2CPhil+4%3A13"> </a>my power is made perfect in weakness.&#8217;</span> Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that <a href="http://www.esvstudybible.org/search?q=2+Cor+12%3A9%2C1+Cor+2%3A5"> </a>the power of Christ may rest upon me.&#8221;  And James tells us in James 1: &#8220;Count it all joy, my brothers,<span> <a id="b2" href="http://www.esvstudybible.org/search?q=James+1#f2"></a></span> when you meet trials <a href="http://www.esvstudybible.org/search?q=James+1%3A2%2C1+Pet+1%3A6"> </a>of various kinds, <span id="v59001003-1"> </span>for you know that <a href="http://www.esvstudybible.org/search?q=James+1%3A3%2C1+Pet+1%3A7"> </a>the testing of your faith <a href="http://www.esvstudybible.org/search?q=James+1%3A3%2CRom+5%3A3%2CJames+5%3A11%2CHeb+10%3A36%2C2+Pet+1%3A6"> </a>produces steadfastness.&#8221;  So when trials, weaknesses, tribulations come into our lives, what do we do?  Praise God.  Glory in infirmities.  Count it all joy.  God is at work.</p>
<p>This low view of God as Santa Claus has come up lately in some discussions I&#8217;ve had on tithing (you can read some <a href="http://markandchas.com/blog/archives/321" target="_blank">here</a>, <a href="http://nowthinkaboutit.com/2009/07/tithing-catalyzes-solidarity/" target="_blank">here</a> (especially the comments section), and <a href="http://markandchas.com/blog/archives/354" target="_blank">here</a>.)  One argument that generally comes around when you discuss the Biblical view of giving with someone who believes in the tithe as a command for believers is the prosperity argument.  EnnisP, a blogger who decided to interact with some of my postings on the tithe just stooped to using this argument.  He says this in a recent post:  &#8220;You have no reason, however, to claim God’s material blessing on your life if you do not commit to this offering [the tithe].  Put Him to the test and see what happens but remember, tithing is obedient giving not sacrificial giving and the Bible teaches that God’s special <a id="AdBriteInlineAd_special" style="background: transparent url(http://files.adbrite.com/mb/images/green-double-underline-006600.gif) repeat-x scroll center bottom; cursor: pointer; color: #006600; text-decoration: none; margin-bottom: -2px; padding-bottom: 2px;" name="AdBriteInlineAd_special" target="_top"></a>blessing will be on those who obey.&#8221;  So the logic here is that if I want God&#8217;s special, material blessing on my life, I must tithe, and, of course, what he means by special, material blessing is God giving me more material things like money.</p>
<p>But isn&#8217;t that a complete misunderstanding of the differences between the Old and New Covenants, you ask.  Of course it is.  And what about the fact that God never actually issues a command for believers in general to tithe?  That doesn&#8217;t stop them.  And its a widespread problem.  The same people that would rail against the high profile health, wealth, and prosperity preachers on TBN and elsewhere will tell you that tithing will bring about God&#8217;s financial blessings.  And they&#8217;re armed with examples of people who didn&#8217;t think they could afford to tithe but decided to anyway and then got a raise or better job, etc.  It goes even further though.  Have you ever heard someone talk about someone who is rich and say something like, &#8220;God has just chosen to bless that guy a little more than the rest of us&#8221;?  Maybe you&#8217;ve said or thought that yourself.</p>
<p>But if you think about it, if you&#8217;re a believer, how can you say that God has blessed someone more?  Think about Paul&#8217;s words in Ephesians 1:  &#8220;Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places. . . .&#8221;  Every spiritual blessing.  This is the inheritance that Paul goes on to say that God has lavished on him.  Its so important to him (and to us) that when Paul talks about confidence in the flesh in Philippians 3, he says, &#8220;Indeed, I count everything as loss because of <a href="http://www.esvstudybible.org/search?q=Phil+3%3A8%2C2+Cor+5%3A15"> </a>the surpassing worth of <a href="http://www.esvstudybible.org/search?q=Phil+3%3A8%2CIsa+53%3A11%2CJer+9%3A23-24%2CJohn+17%3A3%2C2+Pet+1%3A3"> </a>knowing Christ Jesus my Lord.&#8221;  C.S. Lewis dissected this idea well in his essay titled &#8220;<a href="http://www.doxaweb.com/assets/doxa.pdf" target="_blank">The Weight of Glory</a>&#8220;.</p>
<blockquote><p>The promises of Scripture may very roughly be reduced to five heads. It is promised, firstly, that we shall be with Christ; secondly, that we shall be like Him; thirdly, with an enormous wealth of imagery, that we shall have “glory”; fourthly, that we shall, in some sense, be fed or feasted or entertained; and, finally, that we shall have some sort of official position in the universe—ruling cities, judging angels, being pillars of God’s  temple. The first question I ask about these promises is: “Why any of them except the first?” Can anything be added to the conception of being with Christ? For it must be true, as an old writer says, that he who has God and everything else has no more than he who has God only.</p></blockquote>
<p>So when we consider the riches Christ has lavished on us, chiefly our position in Him and relationship with the Father, how could we say that someone could be more blessed.  &#8220;He who has God and everything else has no more than he who has God only.&#8221;  And if everything in my life is a gracious gift of God for my benefit and His glory (even the so-called &#8220;bad&#8221; things) then why would I ask God for more money or material things.  Believe me, He may choose to give them to me and He has, but ultimately they should not be our focus.</p>
<p>The danger is to mistake more material things with God&#8217;s special blessing.  Poverty may be God&#8217;s special blessing in your life because you learn to trust God better.  Relationship problems may be God&#8217;s special blessing because God wants you to learn to be satisfied in Him.  Everything is God&#8217;s special blessing in your life because everything is done for your good and His glory to conform you to the image of Christ.</p>
<p>And when, for His good reasons not based on your performance, God decides to give you more material wealth or possessions, it is a temptation to mistake them for performance incentives.  If I get a raise or better job it could be a temptation in my life to trust in my employer rather than God.  Hence the title of this post.  Pray for me, that I wouldn&#8217;t put my trust in the wrong place.  Pray for me that I wouldn&#8217;t overly indulge myself in the things money can buy.  Pray that, like Paul, I would count all things as loss because of <a href="http://www.esvstudybible.org/search?q=Phil+3%3A8%2C2+Cor+5%3A15"> </a>the surpassing worth of <a href="http://www.esvstudybible.org/search?q=Phil+3%3A8%2CIsa+53%3A11%2CJer+9%3A23-24%2CJohn+17%3A3%2C2+Pet+1%3A3"> </a>knowing Christ Jesus my Lord.  And pray for the <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">prosperity preachers</span> tithe proponents, that they would learn that spiritual blessings far surpass material possessions.  And that God wants your heart, not your money, though He&#8217;ll take both.</p>
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		<title>Biblical Giving</title>
		<link>http://markandchas.com/blog/archives/354</link>
		<comments>http://markandchas.com/blog/archives/354#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 13:58:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Theology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[giving]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Tithing]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://markandchas.com/blog/?p=354</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I recently wrote a post on tithing with a challenge to those who preach the tithe as a command for NT Christians.  A guy named EnnisP decided to stop by and discuss.  You can visit his blog for a defense of the tithe and to see further discussion on this issue.  EnnisP seems like a [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class="drop">I</span> recently wrote a post on tithing with a challenge to those who preach the tithe as a command for NT Christians.  A guy named <a href="http://nowthinkaboutit.com/" target="_blank">EnnisP </a>decided to stop by and discuss.  You can visit <a href="http://nowthinkaboutit.com/" target="_blank">his blog</a> for a defense of the tithe and to see further discussion on this issue.  EnnisP seems like a nice and thoughtful guy.  He&#8217;s just wrong on this issue.</p>
<p>He challenged me to offer up an alternative to tithing as a Biblical principle and it was almost as if he thought that the lack of an alternative left his position as the default.  For those of you interested in argumentation, here are a couple pointers.  First, if you are trying to establish something as truth or a command, you are offering up an affirmative (i.e. P:  God commands NT believers to tithe).  In this case, all an opposing position has to do is show that P is false (~P).  The negative doesn&#8217;t have to prove Q in order to prove ~P.  However, since offering up an alternative is a valid and effective form of argumentation, here it is.</p>
<p>Now, as I was going through some of my thinking and searching out a few of the passages I have referenced in my teaching on this topic, I ran across an article written by someone I don&#8217;t know, but who said exactly what I was thinking.  Its almost like he stole my notes from when I taught this.  So <a href="http://www.solidrock.net/library/anderson/sermons/ot.tithing.vs.nt.giving.php" target="_blank">read the article</a> and then if you have comments, questions, or snide remarks, come back and drop them here in the comments section.  I&#8217;m doing it this way for a couple reasons.  1)  I have a lot to do right now and this saves me some time.  2)  EnnisP acted like he had never heard an alternative to tithing.  I found this and several others quite easily with a simple Google search, so either a) EnnisP never actually looked for an alternative, or b) EnnisP doesn&#8217;t know how to use Google.  Since he has Google Adsense incorporated on his website, I&#8217;m going to guess a.</p>
<p>Just to summarize a little bit, here are the major points the author advances:</p>
<p>1)  God never in Scripture commands anyone besides certain Israelites to tithe.  Notice the word &#8220;certain&#8221;.  There are no commands on Israelites who were not ranchers or farmers to tithe.  EnnisP assumes that they did, but that&#8217;s because it supports his position, not because the text actually says so.</p>
<p>2)  The tithe was a form of taxation to support the theocratic system under which the levitical order effectively constituted the government as well as the religious system.  Under a theocracy they were one and the same (And yes, EnnisP, I read your post on tithing not being taxation.  If I have time, I&#8217;ll spend a little showing why you are misunderstanding a theocratic system).</p>
<p>3)  God, throughout Scripture, has advocated two types of giving.  1) Giving to support the government (Egypt, Israel, Rome, etc.), which was mandatory and specific.  2) Giving to God through His religious system (Moses and the tabernacle, David and the temple, freewill offerings, every NT example of giving) which was non-compulsory and not a specified amount.</p>
<p>4)  NT giving is to be uncompelled, proportionate, sacrificial, cheerful, and regular.  Paul clearly addresses these principles and the article shows them from Scripture.</p>
<p>5)  The purposes for giving are a) to meet the needs of other saints, b) to meet the needs of Christian workers, c) to meet the needs of the poor, d) I would also add that if you benefit from church facilities, you should support them financially, even though the Bible is silent in this regard.</p>
<p>6)  The manner of giving should be a) anonymous, b) voluntary, c) expectant, d)cheerful, e) sacrificial.</p>
<p>7)  The motivation for giving should be a) the example of Christ, b) the command of Christ, c) I would add, our love of God and our brother.</p>
<p>So there it is.  A Biblical view that is an alternative to tithing.  I&#8217;ve had some argue that it won&#8217;t work.  That if you teach NT grace giving, then people won&#8217;t give and the church will go under.  First, that&#8217;s not a Biblical argument but a materialistic argument.  Second, I&#8217;ve spoken to several pastors who preach this way and are doing just fine.  Third, its interesting to note that when the Israelites were commanded to give a certain amount (the tithe), they failed in it and fell under judgment for it, but when they were told to give as they purposed in their hearts without a set amount (Moses and the tabernacle and David with the temple) they gave so much that the leaders had to ask people to stop.</p>
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		<title>Tithing and the NT Church</title>
		<link>http://markandchas.com/blog/archives/321</link>
		<comments>http://markandchas.com/blog/archives/321#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 16:22:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Theology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Tithing]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://markandchas.com/blog/?p=321</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#8217;ve been tossing this around for a while and thought it was time to throw it out there.  I&#8217;ve discussed tithing with several ministers, most notably in this thread, and the argument is generally the same. It usually looks like this:  Abraham commenced it, Moses commanded it, Jesus commended it, Paul continued it.  I even [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class="drop">I</span>&#8217;ve been tossing this around for a while and thought it was time to throw it out there.  I&#8217;ve discussed tithing with several ministers, most notably in <a href="http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=3244&amp;page=1&amp;pp=10&amp;highlight=tithing" target="_blank">this thread</a>, and the argument is generally the same. It usually looks like this:  Abraham commenced it, Moses commanded it, Jesus commended it, Paul continued it.  I even ran across a guy who tried to take it all the way back to Abel, but that was just silly.  However, as good as their argument sounds, here are 2 propositions that the tithe proponents need to overcome in order to advance their argument.  I believe I can prove them Biblically, but for now I&#8217;ll just state them and see if anyone cares to refute them.<span id="more-321"></span></p>
<p>Proposition 1:  The Bible has no record of God commanding His people in general to give 10% of their regular income.</p>
<p>Proposition 2:  The Bible has no record of a saint (OT or NT) giving 10% of their regular income on a regular basis.</p>
<p>Feel free to throw down your counterproofs in the combox.  Really, all you need is one instance of either of those occurences to topple my argument here.  And if you&#8217;re going to teach that the tithe is a requirement for believers, you better be able to show that someone, somewhere in the Bible actually did it the way you are telling people to.</p>
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